The legislature of the state of Texas has approved two cannabis reform policy measures, one for the possession of cannabis concentrates, and one to broaden the state’s medical cannabis program. However, both pieces of legislation were subject to significant amendments prior to passage. In this episode RJ Balde talked to Kate Morgan of Modern Community Connector and Jesse Williams of Texas Cannabis Collective to clarify the details and amendments of the bills and how they align with the cannabis legislation trends across the nation. They also discuss the future of cannabis policy reform in Texas and more.

Texas Cannabis Collective Website        Facebook        Twitter        Instagram

Din Productions Website        Kate Morgan's Facebook        Kate Morgan's Instagram

Hash it Out features conversations about trending cannabis topics. We also bring in industry insiders and influencers to discuss their point of view. To reach the show: hashitout@trichomes.com

Audio Transcription:

RJ: Hey everybody it’s your host RJ and welcome to Hash it Out. The legislature of the state of Texas has approved two cannabis reform policy measures, one for the possession of cannabis concentrates and one to broaden the state’s medical cannabis program. However, both pieces of legislation were subject to significant amendments prior to passage. In this episode, I’ll be speaking with Kate Morgan of Modern Community Connector and Jesse Williams of Texas Cannabis Collective to clarify the details and amendments of the bills and how they align with the cannabis legislation trends across the nation. We’ll also discuss the future of cannabis policy reform in Texas and more. Without further ado, let’s Hash It Out. My guests today are the owner of Modern Community Connector and the Managing Editor and Deputy Director of the Texas Cannabis Collective. Welcome to the show Kate Morgan and Jesse Williams, hello my friends. 

Kate: Hi, thank you for having me. I'm so glad we were able to reconnect today. 

RJ: Yes. Oh absolutely, absolutely. Well, for those who are not in the know we did have a trial run yesterday with this interview and Jesse was joining us on location in front of the Texas Legislature, it was a beautiful backdrop.

Kate: It was a beautiful day. 

RJ: Yeah and a beautiful stress test for the mobile application. So thank you for joining us not only for that trial run, but also for this reHash it Out rather, the one that will actually make it out to the viewers out there. So thank you very much for being doubly generous with your time. 

Jesse: Yeah, no problem.

RJ: Yeah I'm very excited to ask you both about the latest news coming out of Texas and their latest moves for cannabis policy reform in the state. So, if we dive right in let's look at the first bill that came through this week. So the state senate in Texas approved this week a THC concentrates bill that was meant to build upon legislation that was implemented in 2015. Now, it didn't go through without being subjected to significant amendments. So Kate starting with you one of the most notable amendments in that bill was of course the Delta 8 THC ban. So tell me about that and how it sort of aligns with perhaps nationwide trends that you're seeing in regards to Delta 8 THC because that is a very hotly contested subject right now in particular.

Kate: Well, it seems like I got kicked off Colorado the Trends. They came down, like no we're not dealing with this, they banned it, and then I believe it was up in New Jersey. And it's you're just starting to see this trend happening and I think it just comes down to politics not man of power. They really don't understand. Science is so much quicker than our policies and our laws. So, I think it's a little bit of a knee-jerk reaction but at the same time we need our research and our science and all that technicality stuff to catch up to the actual politicians. And that's where it comes into things like boots on ground, people that are actually going to happen to their senators and trying to educate them to the best of their ability. So they can have this information and have open forms, who have open dialogue, so we're not having bans. Every time you have a ban you're just creating another market that's all you're doing. You're not really going to get rid of it, you're just going to create this other branch that's going to happen. I mean, look, what happened to Prohibition with alcohol, Al Capone was founded and the only reason he got caught was because of tax evasion but guess what we have the 280-E tax break. It was made because of these certain other elements. So we don't want to continue this trend or this pattern because we already have a lot of industries and we need to figure out how to communicate accordingly and not have all this red tape. And that's kind of how the viewpoint you're hearing out there with all the people talking about it is like another thing that we're going to have to like come out with all of this other stuff still. We still have laws and stuff that we need to talk about in hemp community and the cannabis community. To restrict us in this way, that's not really helping us, that's actually hurting us more. So it's one of those things that we just have to be persistent. We have to continue to keep educating, showing up, being involved, finding the right people to connect with, like I'm noticing Texas cannabis with Jesse over here, they're doing great things. So I wanted to make sure that the people that are boots on ground getting involved being at the forefront of this getting the voice out because we don't get to hear it. You're not hearing about all the stuff on mainstream TV, you're really not but you hear like little bits of it, just little snippets. But the people that really need to get their voices heard from the ones actually making legislation move and that's where we need to hear from.

RJ: And Jesse speaking of which Kate mentioned the boots on the ground and those who actually are moving this legislation forward. You were in the case of yesterday when we were doing a trial run of the show you were literally outside of the room where it happened. So what are you hearing in the Texas community in regards to response to this Bill, how are people feeling about it? How do you see it impacting Texans? 

Jesse: So initially our Delta 8 issue was not going to be in our concentrates bill, it was any part of our hemp plan. It was put in the bill, yanked out of the house and when it made it over to the senate it seemed like it was a possibility that people were going to have some backlash with that being in there to kill the bill. And the senator who had sponsored the bill in the senate the hemp bill put in an amendment on to the concentrates bill and spoken with the author from the house and they approved of doing this amendment that were they were going to limit total THC that anything above .3% was going to be considered not hemp and this was going to be their way of doing a Delta 8 ban. They were going to include Delta 8 in this and it passed through. But as of last night for my understanding there's been an agreement worked out between the senator who sponsored the hemp bill in the Senate with the author from the house where they've changed the language in the hemp bill. It doesn't say Delta 8 specifically but it talks about synthetic cannabinoids and it being for a consumable product. From my understanding, this is something that the specific language of the house members are agreeable and they're going to try to have what's called a conference committee, if there's ever amendments added members from the house and the Senate come together, three each and they discuss the amendments and they're going to try to remove this amendment that was thrown onto the concentrates bill because there's some groups are given an interpretation to it that this could actually kill the actual hemp flower market as well in Texas which we very much do not want. We do not want that to happen. So there's a very good shot that that language will be removed from our concentrates bill and it'll go across as intended. And that the hemp bill itself won't specifically target Delta 8 but will target synthetics things that have been made in a lab.

RJ: Sure. 

Jesse: As well as things that are applied to flower and when they say appllied to flower, they're trying to get at when you have hemp flower and for lack of better terms I know right now they spray Delta 8 on it. And concern has arisen because there's people using it. I talked to a guy who runs a lab where they found bleach. They have found paint thinner as some of the things are cutting Delta 8 with when they make it applicable to spraying on flower which is why we're seeing some more concern from our industry and then legislators are worried about intoxicating effects as they claim.

Kate: And they're also afraid that's going to go down the K2 route, they're terrified of that. They don't want to have the re-creation of 2010 again that we had in Texas where you had like all these head shops that were supplying this and people were just, it was thrown on the floor, they would spray stuff with it and they skip it in a pack and they threw it. So that's why they're so terrified of this is because they don't understand it and they don't know how to regulate it. And so they've already gone through this which has nothing to do with hemp or cannabis, this spice stuff over here but that's what they are trying to contribute to and that's like the big argument and it sucks because it hasn't they're not the same at all. There's nothing to it. It's just a mechanism of what they're doing to the plant that's a big problem because you have patients that are using this. These are things that can compromise so many things that people have immune issues. Jessie, what do you think? 

Jesse: I brought that up in a committee hearing and I'm catching flack for it as well. It reminds me of the spice era where things were…

RJ: Yeah, I had that same feeling. 

Kate: Yeah.

Jesse: It was basically potpourri and then they were taking research chemicals and what they didn't know what they were cutting it with and spraying it on flowers and saying, “here smoke this, it's okay and it's legal”. And there are legitimate vendors out there making legitimate distillate but there are a load of bad actors out there as well, really bad. And it's been tough the last year with COVID to go after bad actors. So the problem is we're having more of a knee-jerk reaction than the proper testing regulation we need in place to make sure people have a safe product on the shelf.

RJ: Wow. You were mentioning that there is language that is prohibiting quote-unquote synthetic cannabinoids but it mentioned Delta 8 THC specifically. Is there a gray area there? Like how much confusion is that generating, right now?

Jesse: I'll read the labels. I was sent to a committee substitute yesterday at the Senator's office and says notwithstanding any other law a person may not manufacture, sell, or purchase a consumable hemp product in this state, that one has Delta 9 THC concentration of more than 0.3% on the dry weight basis. 2. That contains synthetically derived tetrahydrocannabinol, THC as defined by department rule, and when I say department, I’m talking about Department of State Health Services in Texas, including synthetically derived acids, isolates or salts of THC. 3. That in the form and quantity packaged for consumer use is reasonably determined by the department to have an intoxicating effect 4. That exceeds any federal limit for THC 5. If additional THC and a concentration greater than 0.3% of the dry weight basis has been applied to the product. 

RJ: Wow. Yeah, this is quite their way of winded? 

Jesse: Yeah, this is their way of addressing, of saying well, you say Delta 8 right now there's already talks of Delta 10, Delta 11, 12. Whatever number you take it out too. 

Kate: Yeah. 

RJ: So is this sort of like it could it could potentially be seenas their way to circumvent that possibility in the future with new forms of THC, coming out. This is sort of the preempted pre-emptive measure?

Jesse: Yes, because they recognized the easiest way of describing how we have Delta 8 in our market now is it's not very abundant in a hemp plant. It's there, it occurs naturally but it is not very abundant that you can make a concentrate easily out of it from a single hemp plant. We're seeing labs take CBD and then make what should be defined as a derivative to make Delta 8 and they're saying, well we recognize they can make derivatives further down the line. So they're curbing that right now, instead of, as I say reminds me of the spice era where they went after one compound rather than an analog, analog and analog.

Kate: There’s always a pattern, right? 

Jesse: They recognize from the last time they dealt with that, that's why we’re seeing legislation work this way instead of straightforward addressing one isomer of Delta 8. 

Kate: Wow. Yeah, so many cannabinoids in the plant, man. I mean, that's kind of like going over to the cannabis side and there's like THCA, THCB, there's all these other amounts of this so if we're not going to issue right now at hemp in Texas. Wow, this is gonna be interesting. 

RJ: Wow. Yeah. So, it is certainly ground breaking and welcome news to see any sort of progressive update on cannabis policy reform but it is sort of like a mixed bag it seems in Texas because it's like we're working on these bills but they have all of these amendments that perhaps advocates might not agree with. So it's like do we praise this legislation? Or do you feel Jesse that it's best to come at it with certain grains of salt if you will? 

Jesse: It's coming out of a certain grains of salt. That section that I read out of the bill is I would say the biggest issue with the bill, 99% of the bill is really an awesome bill. It's going to help colleges won’t have to pay for a lot of permits. Any time in Texas and our hemp program, you have two different strains of hemp growing next to one another, you had to have a separate law permit and her $60 a piece. So if you had a college that had a hundred shelves with five plants a piece on each shelf to do research. Well now you've got a hundred lot permits you need to have, and that becomes extremely expensive for a college to pay for this lot permit and we exempted lot permits. We're changing testing times to harvest a match with federal regulation. We're really trying to make sure that we have the most open program we can to federal regulation and an amendment was added from my understanding, we're going to be the first state in the United States that’s going to have helped feed as a commodity item. We can give this to consumable animals. So we have game ranches that can actually have farmers or they'll take him turning into a feed that you give to exotic deer and they can buy this at a better price and they normally buy bales of other feed and it gives another option to fill their crop-field. We've got farmers and sometimes aren't using possibly 30% of their field. They can fill that up with hemp and have a pivot go over it that's already running and sell this and make extra money from it, so it really boosts our economy to do so. 

Kate: Well, hemp was originally used in bird aviation like they're the only ones who showed up when hemp is actually getting outlawed because they said that hemp was the best thing that they could actually give to the birds and they were fighting for it. And so that's so interesting how we're coming full circle again back to our farmers and helping with that was just wonderful.

RJ: Certainly, and let me ask about this because looking back at the concentrates bill it from what I understand does not include any provisions for any wording to expedite any sort of process for the expungement of records for those who have previously been convicted of cannabis concentrate possession crimes. So Kate, what are your thoughts on that with these bills being subject to so many amendments, why wasn't this a part of it?

Kate: I don't think they're ready yet to actually start doing that avenue of expungement but they did just recently a mass expungement of people's misdemeanors and felonies in the state of Texas. Usually, it takes a very long time to go through this process and it can be very daunting. Then also getting people to come and actually want to get their record expunged have the funds to get their record expunged and not feel like they get lost in the system. Like, we feel like we do with my variants when I was arrested for a small amount of marijuana in Texas is when I was working out there, this is like a small possession, it was my own personal stuff. It was very harsh, I pled guilty. So I lost my license for six months and had to pay a fine instead of doing probation and all this other stuff. And, I just decided that was going to be better than me having for a year having to pay to know, do all these drugs tests, show up, do all these things that financially, I don't really have 5 grand, sometimes it can be more, it could be less. I just didn't, I had the money to pay, what I could at that time and then I just didn't drive for six months. I figured out how to Uber figured out how to walk around and do different things. I lost a lot of weight. If you look at that time in my life, I got a bike and I biked everywhere in California that I could so I learned how to get around it and then that process after two years if you have a misdemeanor, I believe if four or seven felony, you could get your record expunged. And in my research, I've talked to many lawyers, I went through and I talked to musicians and then sat down with them and and even have people like say, hey, this is my retainer, and this is how much it's going to cost and will walk you through it and it was like thousands and thousands of dollars. And I was like, okay I'm not gonna do this right now. So then a couple years ago by and within the last year, I was like,  what, maybe it's time to do this and I came across in my research, expunction and they were great to me, they were able to get my record completely done in six months because it's not faster but I set up on a payment plan. I think mine came to a total of like think it was like $900 when everything was said and done. They texted me, followed up, called me and everything.  Anytime I sent a text, I  would get an email response about where I go and find everything. It was just the best experience. I think I could have had since I had such a horrible experience and the government system. So it's trying to give people there life back. If you have a felony, you can't vote, you can't have a gun and you're in the state of Texas that's like, oh my goodness. I don't know if that’s you but really in Texas that's like that's livelihood. So there's these things that we need to help people get their lives back. It's cannabis these people didn't rape somebody, that murder somebody, they didn't do anything other than use a plant for themselves to better themselves and they're getting in trouble for it. So that is our goal to help get people back into the workforce, feel proud to be back in the workforce and not afraid when they do that background check. Oh, that's going to show up. I'm not going to get this job. That's the worst feeling in the world that you want this job and you're qualified for it and you're really good at it. I mean that happened to me. I was about to work for a  government job and they pulled me aside there. We are going to hire you, we really liked you a lot but we just we're going to make sure we're going to drug test every six months and I was like wait I'm not in the military anymore and I was like no I'm not doing that and they're like oh it's just precautionary and I was like absolutely not. Not gonna happen and the thing is that I quit smoking at that time. So I wasn't even using cannabis at that time because I was trying to get into other jobs but just the fact that like my liberty was going to get stripped again to work at this job that I was dreading already. Yes. Great pay. Great benefits. I look like I'm back in the corporate world but it was like I'm going to lose half of myself and now deal with all my other issues. You have to figure out what you're willing to sacrifice and how you go about it and make sure you have a good support system, community, counseling, use cannabis if you can legally, make sure it is something that you are educating yourself on. It's not a party thing. People think it's a party thing, it's really not, it's really medicine at the end of the day. Getting your record expunged, I think is the best thing that you can do and they're actually located in Austin Texas. 

RJ: All right. It's great Kate that you found this resource, right? It's certainly like you said, it's invaluable to people's lives, to be able to live a life not in fear, if you have this prior conviction for a cannabis offense. So Jessie ,what are advocates saying in Texas about the importance of this being a retroactive policy?

Jesse: So unfortunately in Texas we're not going to do retroactive expungement or reductions for what people had experienced when they went through a conviction process. She said Texas, I would say I imagine this would be something in the next legislative session we may be addressing, but right now it's something that If you're in the middle of a case, right now that it may be dropped, if your case is going out be on September 1st to 2021. If it goes out beyond September 1st to 2021 it could possibly be something the court would reduce the charge.If you've already faced your trial conviction things of that nature, unfortunately it's not going to be retroactive for those people. I do recommend that people who currently in court right now that they talk with their attorney about it, they reach out to a lawyer and they make sure that they can work this out before they start assuming that they're going to be in the clear to just go from a felony to a Class B misdemeanor in our state. 

RJ: Let me ask you Jesse about another piece of legislation moving through the Texas legislature and what advocates are saying about it. There is another bill to expand the state's medical cannabis program, it's moved through both Chambers in the Texas legislature although it did also see significant amendments on its way through. Notably the removal of chronic pain as a qualifying condition under the medical cannabis program as well as a significant drop in the proposed new THC cap. So tell me about that and why? 

Jesse: So we did wind up losing out of the Senate chronic pain, there was a reduction from 5% to 1% as well as there was a part that said that a debilitating medical condition designated by the Department of State Health Services under Subsection B, that State Health Services by rule may designate a debilitating medical condition for which a physician may prescribe THC cannabis. Basically, they were going to be able to evaluate every so often, bring in research and say okay well, not only will we treat chronic pain which got removed but we'll treat migraines or we will treat that you can prescribe it for this type of infection perhaps and that got removed. The reason I would say it got removed is our lieutenant governor has not been a fan of this program from day one and last session he was very open about how he was not a fan as far as talking about criminal penalty reductions at this moment ago. He has been very open that he is not fond of changing the criminal penalties for cannabis possession. We started this session off and our governor announced that we should expect very little cannabis movement or cannabis change in this space during the legislative session primarily because we took surveys. Two different universities took polls, research institutions and found that more than 50% of conservative survey takers wanted full complete legalization, taxed so we can fund for schools. We saw way more than that obviously on the liberal side and overall I have to believe it was more than sixty percent, sixty to sixty-five percent that wanted just overall legalization. So the tide is very much changed and when people bring it up, hey it's evident now most of the state wants this, even on the conservative side that's when our governor stepped fourth is it will you might not see much change this session and for my understanding the author of the bill Stephanie Klick sat down and talked with Governor Abbott, that's what I was informed of that she actually work with him on this bill this was something he would have been willing to sign and when it went to the Senate it was lack of benefit, it got punted around until the last moment and we had to fight to get it a committee hearing to get assigned a committee. We had a fight to get a committee hearing. We had to do rule suspension, which a rule suspension is not uncommon, but we usually don't see it to get hearings on certain bills, such as this, but we made our voice clear, we came out numbers and said we want to see this move forward and we do have a few senators that said they don't want to see this program open up more. Senator Brian Birdwell had said on the floor last session that he thought it was a dangerous path to complete legalization. That's a nice summary of what the heck is. He had an extensive conversation with a medical professional on the floor who was answering the bill and he was afraid that veterans are being used to gain compassion for this program. I'm here of my own volition. I'm a Navy veteran and I vehemently support expanding our medical program with the definitely the research we have, and what we’ve seen work for people. And I'm not, I'm not under control of somebody else trying to pull heartstrings for legislators at any point, this is my own doing my own free will. 

RJ: Yeah, it's an interesting feeling that I feel personally because I'm happy to see any sort of progress in terms of cannabis policy reform in any state and hopefully eventually on the federal level. But this certainly does feel like a very mixed bag sort of situation because there's a lot going on but at the same time it's like there's a lot of like steps back while at the same time steps forward. So with all that being said, my last question for y'all and we'll start with you Jesse, what are you keeping an eye on over at Texas Cannabis Collective in terms of legislation moving forward in Texas? 

Jesse: So right now, we are definitely looking at the conference committees that we can have for these bills because the medical, the concentrate and the hemp, they can all get a conference committee, the language could change and what I've seen at least for two of them the concentrates and the hemp we could see very positive changes compared to what we saw come out of the senate. Then post session. we're watching our own smokable hemp ban lawsuit taking place, we're waiting on a judgment for that so we've got to keep our eyes peeled for how that's going to play out. My group Texas Cannabis Collective that I'm working with we're going to have a monthly meeting on 2nd of June at the Deep Ellum our company in Dallas Texas, 3200 East Commerce Street. In case I got the name of that venue wrong. I just keep Deep Ellum iis what sits in my mind. That's the name of the neighborhood it's in but we're going to be having a church. I believe two attorneys are coming out. Some vendors are coming out. There are going to  people who are knowledgeable about the medical field, they're gonna be able to explain to people how to get into our compassionate use program if they're eligible. How to do with legal issues, where we're going to see possible future legal issues with the legislation that's coming forward because we definitely need to get our shops, our retailers, everybody on board to make sure that they understand the law and they can actually start educating the customers who come in a lot better about what's taking place in Texas. 

RJ: Got it and Kate what have you got going on over at Modern Community Connector? Tell me about what you are working on over there and tell me about how I can go camping with Snoop Dogg?

Kate: And Slim Thug

RJ: Yeah. 

Kate: I have been for the last four years, I left Texas and just been working throughout the cannabis and hemp industry, the real estate industry, really networking. Getting to know people who are really doing great things in the industry and really having meaningful connections because that's the only way that we're actually going to be forward in this industry. So I work part-time, I am with Modern Community Connector and I have been freelancing for PVM Entertainment, which is powered by Light Nation and we are doing a Snoop Dogg and Slim Thug and also Baby Bash and ‘Lil Kiki will be there at Ardmore Oklahoma on July 4, you can come camping, there's tickets you can get for a spot, it's going to be so much fun. And the cool thing is that you can buy cannabis, you could pre buy it because there's going to be a dispensary actually on the campsite. So it's just one of those great things that you don't want to bring it in or whatever. You just come in is we're going to have a pre-sale, you say your name, you grab it and then there's going to be vendors and all sorts of stuff that's on July 4th. And then we're going to be coming to a Cedar Park and will be there for that one and we are still looking for some vendors. We're only doing a select few of vendors at that one and then we also have the one in San Antonio at Sunken Gardens and that one's going to be on July 2nd. So that's going to be a lot of fun. I'm really excited about that and Green Skyline CBD is actually going to be the sponsor for the one in Cedar Park and the one in San Antonio. Absolutely love this company, I actually use it. They have a CBG line that I have really bad IDS anxiety, like so bad from the military. I think it's from all the MRE’s and looks like just being nervous all the time. I've had to find out like you can't always use cannabis, you know, THC but I've learned that using certain CBD products and CBG is probably the best thing for my body. It helps with my severe nausea, upset stomach. It allows me to be in the moment and not worry about my stomach. So I am so grateful for this company and they've given my life back in so many ways and I never put my name with CBD companies but this one I am because it works like I am an advocate for it and so I'm really excited about that. That's one of the things that we're doing and basically what my company is that we connect people with meaningful connections. We find people who are actually dedicated to this space and actually want to grow in it, not just fly-by-night or they're coming and trying to make quick cash. I'm trying to connect everybody who throughout the states that are actually digging into this industry and doing long-term work, we have to build a strong foundation, if we don't,we're not going to make it. So I'm really looking forward to continuing to connect with each and every one of you and I'm really excited about it. So that's kind of what we're doing right now and I'm really excited about the future in cannabis and hemp, especially in Texas is looking bright. 

RJ: Definitely and you're putting the unity and community, 

Kate: I love that. It's beautiful. 

RJ: You can use it free of charge. Yeah, that one's for you, that's a gift. Yeah that's a gift for coming on the show. Yeah. Yeah

Kate: Yeah, yeah, thank you!

RJ: Well, right on! I am excited to keep an eye on everything you've got going on and Kate over at Modern Community Connector and Jesse over at Texas cannabis Collective we will certainly be keeping an eye on everything going on. Kate I am going to ask you off air for the link to that Oklahoma event with Snoop Dogg because I'm down. I'm down. 

Kate: If you want to go to the Den Productions and get tickets you can go there right now and then Austin just shoot me a link if you guys want there are sponsorships, this is more for the program because I know you and I are going to talk later and thanks for having us. 

RJ: Definitely, definitely, no problem. Yeah, and we will leave all of the information for both of your organization's in the description of this episode. Jesse again, thank you so much for doing that trial run on location. Hopefully, in the future when we re re Hash it Out when there is another bill coming through Texas, we could try that again, we could try maybe pick up a cafe Wi-Fi or something like that outside. 

Jesse: Yeah, that would be nice. 

RJ: Right on. Kate Morgan, Jesse Williams again thank you so much for joining me. Please continue to be well and stay safe and I hope we get to talk again soon. 

Kate: Thank you so much. 

RJ: Yeah, no problem.

Jesse: Thank you.

RJ: And thank y'all for watching, liking, commenting and subscribing. That is it for Hash it Out y'all I am your host RJ Balde as always, stay safe and we'll catch you next time. Peace out.