RJ: Hey everybody, it's RJ and welcome to Hash it Out. Nano molecular technology in cannabis, it's a thing and it's here to stay with countless individuals already finding relief for their medical conditions through the increased bioavailability of cannabis products made with nanotech. But is it safe? In this episode, I'll be speaking with Keith Cich of Sunderstorm about the process of creating cannabis products with nanotechnology. The safety and efficacy of their products, the future of nanotech in cannabis, upcoming cannabis, DNA tests and more without further ado let's Hash it Out. My guest today is the co-founder and president of the cannabis company Sunderstorm, welcome to the show Keith's Cich. Hello sir. How are you?

Keith: I'm doing great. Very, happy to be here, RJ.

RJ: Oh, we're very happy to have you and I understand that you are up in the Bay Area whereas I am here in Southern California, Orange County. So we're in the same state, although we are a bit of a distance away from one another. How is life up north?

Keith: You know life up north has been very locked down during quarantine. I think the Bay Area has probably been the most locked down place in the nation and I feel like it's finally turning the corner. Restaurants are beginning to open and with a little bit limited capacity. So compared to to Southern California where I visited, I think we've been a little bit more hardcore. So I think the people here are going to enjoy turning the corner and coming out of that dark tunnel because it's been a long time.

RJ: Whew, it has been a long tunnel. Yeah, we were talking before we started recording here that it has been the course of the past over a year now certainly has felt like that stretching tunnel that that ever-growing tunnel. But with the vaccine rates that we're seeing in this state at least and with the re-openings happening it does seem like there is that corner that we're turning that we might be sort of stepping our way toward a post pandemic life. So, I'm glad to see that you are doing well and you have remained healthy over that course of time and here's hoping, here's hoping that we can finally take our steps perhaps not back to normal because we've been talking about wanting to go back to normal a lot but I hope that in many ways we can see this as an opportunity to find a better normal to not maybe go back to the normal that still riddled with very many issues but perhaps carve a new a new normal. But all that being said,I 'm just glad that you have your health first and foremost.

Keith: For sure, we have grown during the pandemic actually and have over 200 employees and the decisions we had to make as management to keep our employees safe was extremely complex because the business wants to continue to operate and we're providing medicine to thousands of people in California and wanted to make sure that we continue to offer that during pandemic, very stressful, very anxiety conditions. So, it's been a tricky navigation but I'm really glad that we've made it through and our employee base is healthy and done well. 

RJ: Certainly and speaking about your company Sunderstorm which I mentioned at the top of the show, you are the co-founder and President. The topic of nano molecular technology in cannabis is sort of a hot button topic, it sort of finds its waves of discussion in the cannabis community and in the culture now. The Sunderstorm family of brands includes a few lines. So you have the Kanha gummies, you have the Wind Vapes and you have the Nano5 science-based sublinguals. Now those are made through a process called emulsification which for those who may not know is a process in which a surfactant is used to mix two liquids that don't usually mix into a stable compound such as perhaps an oil and water. So tell me more about this nano molecular technology and the liposomal delivery system that increases the bioavailability of the cannabis products over at Sunderstorm.

Keith: An analogy that I use it's not how much vitamin C, you take, it’s how much vitamin C gets in your bloodstream which in some ways is why when you buy vitamin C at Whole Foods or Walgreens it comes in such a large milligram content because actually only about ten to thirty percent gets in your bloodstream, right? So, they're actually factoring in this massive loss of the primary product actually built into the product itself that you pay for even though it's not going to get into your bloodstream. So what nanotechnology is trying to do is say, hey what are we trying to get into the bloodstream and what's the best way to get it there? So we were actually the first cannabis company we think in North America to have a nano product on the shelf of a licensed THC retailer. Which is our early formulation of the Nano5. So we really looked at the pharmaceutical world which of course you know is the drugs that they're trying to deliver in the pharmaceutical worlds are very expensive. So you want to make sure that you waste as little as possible and as much of it gets maximized in your bloodstream. They've actually been using liposomal technology for 20 years. In fact, it's not patentable because it's been out in the marketplace for such a long period of time. So it's kind of open source, you might call for nanotechnology. What it really means is that we have a tincture that you spray under your tongue, so it's called a sublingual, lingual being your tongue and that every molecule of THC or CBD is actually wrapped in a molecule of a fatty lipid and what it does is it tricks your body because your body wants to absorb fatty lipids that's something that your body thirsts for so tricks it by putting the THC and the CBD which wouldn't ordinarily be absorbed directly into your bloodstream inside this fatty lipid but this fatty lipid is so small, it's actually smaller than a wavelength of light. So it's like 30 nanometers. In fact, when we first started licensing this technology. I went to one guy in California that had the technology to actually look and see what the size of the particle was when it goes below a hundred nanometers because to get to 30 nanometers and prove that it's that small a wavelength of light requires a whole lab. So we wanted to make sure first that the technology actually could be proven scientifically which we did before we actually brought the product to market. So what it really means is that you're spraying different ratios could be either high THC, low CBD, could be a one-to-one, could be a high CBD, low THC then spray it under your tongue and within five minutes the fatty lipids are actually being directly absorbed into your bloodstream underneath your tongue. So it's bypassing the liver, it's bypassing the digestive tract. The digestive tract is kind of brutal for things like vitamin C, because it's very, very acidic and very bitter, right? So it's trying to break down hamburgers and pizza. So, it's not there to work with really a fine-tooth comb on more sophisticated particles. So, bypassing the whole digestive tract allows it to get in the bloodstream and our clients are saying that they can feel the effects in five minutes, clearly in 15 to 20 minutes they feel the effects of the medicine. So, they know that it's actually being effective. and that the bioavailability is extremely high.

RJ: Wow in full disclosure I've tried some of the Nano5 sublinguals before so I can attest to that much quicker onset in comparison to other cannabis products that I have used. So yeah, I'm certainly in line with that assessment that you're seeing from your customers. If I understand this correctly the use of nano molecular technology in cannabis products not only increases the bioavailability of the cannabinoids in the products but does it in any way sort of help with supply in a way that you don't have to necessarily use as much cannabis in a product which is potentially something that could be helpful over the course of the past year for example, where we've seen cannabis demand rise so much during the pandemic.

Keith: You're actually seeing people take higher doses of THC during the pandemic. So it is true that with both THC and CBD continual use of the product requires slightly elevated dosing as time passes. And I think we can all agree that we want the effect with the least amount of drugs or medicine possible. It's the effect we're going after. It's not the 20 milligrams of THC that we're after. So I think that needs to be kept in mind. We did a test that wasn't huge, it was probably about 10 to 20 people where they were in a hospital setting and they took 12 milligrams of a standard CBD tincture and a standard CBD tincture which is 90% of what's out there is MCT oil, coconut oil basically, with THC or CBD or some combination mixed in. It doesn't actually disperse very well as is one problem. So you really have to shake it. So if you are getting regular tinctures, make sure you shake those before you consume. The week we did a test with that compared to the Nano5 which was at 12 milligram dose of CBD. So you had kind of a standard tincture 12 milligram MCT delivery, 12 milligrams of nano delivery. After 20 minutes we found that there was seven milligrams of CBD of the Nano5 in the bloodstream on average across the patients. Whereas in the traditional tincture there was zero. Zero milligrams of CBD got in the bloodstream after 20 minutes. In fact, even after an hour there is only a couple milligrams of the standard CBD that got in the bloodstream and I think our product went up to something around 80% bioavailability. So at any point in time given the same dose of nano versus regular there is about five times more nano In the bloodstream that you could test than just a standard tincture. So that's the kind of efficacy we're talking about and the future we're looking at as a cannabis industry.

RJ: Wow. So the data is certainly there to back up the use of nanomolecular technology in terms of bioavailability for cannabis products and while the nanotechnology is innovative it is sometimes a hot-button topic for some cannabis companies who may be skeptical to embrace nanotech. Notably, Rebecca White who is the CTO of the cannabis company Trait Biosciences. I don't know if you've heard of them but they cited limited research on nanotech last year and said, “there are so many questions around the safety and use of nanotechnologies that we just don't feel it's the right thing for us to use going forward”.  Now Trait also warns about nanoparticle absorption in unexpected locations such as in the fetus of a pregnant woman. Now using cannabis products while you are pregnant or while you perhaps are undergoing some sort of medical condition or perhaps taking other sorts of medical treatments. Cannabis use during those situations is in of itself it's own discussion whether or not that is good idea but all of that being said tell me about what your thoughts are on those comments and then speak to the the safety of nano molecular technology in cannabis products because when it comes to cannabis products one of the biggest questions that consumers tend to have is safety just simply is this a safe product for me to take?

Keith: Definitely. It's an absolute legitimate question to ask. There is no question about that. I mean, one of the challenges we have in cannabis is that the federal government has been so restrictive on research at the university level they are beginning to open that up a little bit recognizing that this truly medicine. 

RJ: I mean, it's here and so it's not going away anytime soon. 

Keith: I’d say it's the only thing that Democrats and Republicans can agree on Is actually cannabis but perhaps for different reasons. I think Republicans are looking more at the economic and the tax implications and keeping state budgets kind of inline, which are important for both sides. So let's take one step back on that which is I mentioned earlier, the liposome delivery which is in our Nano5 so if you went to Sunderstorm.com and looked at Nano5, that's our tincture line. I'm sure that has been actually used by pharmaceutical companies for probably 30 years if not more and they obviously have done clinical trials and are doing much more. They have a much bigger budget right for the science behind the drugs than cannabis companies do today. So I would say that based on the experience of the liposomal I think we've gotten decades of use that indicates no significant situations where any company has recalled a product for liposomal delivery. Now you do need to be careful because it does get into your bloodstream as high as 80 to 90% bioavailability. So you want to make sure that what you sent to the bloodstream is clean, right? So for this reason at Sunderstorm we have a zero parts per billion pesticide policy. So it has to be non detect on the lab test at every level so when someone, we buy distillate, when someone sells us distillate, they give us their test results. We make sure it's all non detect and then we send it to her own company and make sure that we get a non detect on the bulk oil before we put it in the homogenizer which actually makes the Nano5 and and basically blend the things that don't want to blend together, the THC oil and the and the liposomes. And then, of course, we do standard lab testing at the end to make sure that the final tincture or the final gummy has non detect. So I would say one of my answers would be that if a company is going to use Nano they have to go above and beyond whatever the threshold is for pesticides and just say listen,” we're not going to risk putting any pesticides straight into the bloodstream”. So there's lots of nano companies out there. I've actually not heard of another company having the zero parts per billion pesticide policy. In fact, I've not heard another cannabis company having that policy. Cameron, my partner and I are very kind of health nutty, so we want to bring that health nuttiness to our consumers. So I think that's another thing to keep in mind. So that's how we I think we do address the issue of safety and efficacy in the nano product.

RJ: Certainly and that safety is so important I think in the cannabis space in particular just because of the nature of the cannabis industry. It always has ever since its Inception as a legal industry in this country has been subject to a lot of scrutiny. It's always held under a microscope and people tend to try to poke holes in the legitimacy of the industry and so that focus on safety and efficacy and making sure that you are putting out the cleanest product as possible will only help the reputation of the reputation of the cannabis industry and the legitimacy of it.

Keith: And this is a huge issue right between black market players, unlicensed where I can almost assure you that those vapes have a high concentration of pesticides in them. I've been in the business for a little while and NBC did an expose I think it was maybe 2017. It was right before licensing, where they basically brought 44 kind of mostly Vape products to a lab and 41 out of 44 had dangerous levels of pesticides. If you don't have lab testing being required, people are going to cheat. And so, that when you go into a license, a license shop in California, that every one of those products on the shelf have been lab tested and has either no or very low amount of pesticides that's considered safe. I just really encourage people to focus on the license market because your health matters. 

RJ: Mmm. Certainly it's all about conscious consumerism, right? You have to make sure what you're putting into your body. Especially if it's more bioavailable than most products, right? All that being said, while some remain to be skeptical about nano molecular technology in cannabis, I mean, it's here, right? And older demographics in particular, are finding great relief from these products when it comes to relieving their pain associated with arthritis or other sorts of chronic pain conditions. So people are certainly finding relief and efficacy and effectiveness in these products. So, with that being said, tell me about the role that you see nanotech playing in the future of cannabis and does Sunderstorm happen to have any exciting things in the works that you would be willing to share on this program.

Keith: I think nano nanotech is here to stay, right? Ultimately I think the reason it's going to be here because it will eventually bring bring prices down because instead of needing 10 milligrams of THC in a gummy, you could put three three or four milligrams of THC in a gummy have the same effect so suddenly now the manufacturer can cut their costs because has cannabis oil is really the most expensive part of food process manufacturing for an edibles company like ourselves. You can look at every industry and there is a drive to lower prices and continue the same quality product, Trader Joe's comes to mind on that front. So I think nanotech is here to stay. I do believe that we need more research and we need to make sure that we're putting clean products in there so that we're actually doing the consumers service and not a disservice. And of course Sunderstorm, always has some interesting products in the lineup. The latest thing is that we've been we've been working with a group called Endocanna which is creating a DNA test kit for THC and CBD where it's going to basically look at your DNA and have a bunch of different triggers to see how you react to THC, how you react to CBD and everybody reacts differently. In fact, my business partner and I could not react more differently, which is why we went and did this task because we knew how we reacted, and we were curious to see whether the test told us what we thought we knew, which is that I respond well to THC. I've been a moderate user of THC for the last 30 years while being a runner and parent in the works on THC for me is actually a little bit of an upper and it allows me to actually think more creatively. I like being social even at an event with a small in a moderate amount of THC. So, I respond I would say well to THC. I actually find that CBD doesn't have that same kind of impact on me that can happen on my partner. Cameron on the other hand, really finds that he's more of a couch potato or like THC, really kind of brings him out of his mental game and slows him down. I mean, there's some great reasons for doing that, so I'm not judging that. But for him it's not a social experience. But for him he really responds. Like he can feel THC in 5 minutes and really feels a strong response to CBD. So the test really kind of confirmed that. My kind of genomes are more designed to actually perform well with THC and his genomes are designed the better to perform with CBD. We're coming out with three new nano sprays that are designed to work with different genome types. It's going to be called Nano5 DNA. It's not been released yet, we're still working on it but what happens if you go into a licensed store and buy Nano5 DNA. You get a discount on a DNA test, think 23andMe. So you would basically do an actual DNA test and then you would go up to the website for Endocanna where they would then talk about how your genome responds to THC and CBD and then ultimately would recommend a couple products. So, we're developing three products that would fit ino broad categories of people. So if you're this type of person, this nano product would do well for you. If you've got this type of genome this other product would work well for you.

RJ: Wow, that is incredibly exciting to hear. Wow. Yeah, I would love to be a part of that. It's so serendipitous  that I was just looking up DNA test kits yesterday because I'm so interested in that scientific process and getting that data. I love seeing that data about myself and just knowing more about my own personal chemistry. So, that is incredibly exciting and this might be a bit of a stretch but you mentioned that it's still very much in the works. Do you have a timeline yet, maybe a tentative timeline yet of when we might be able to expect to see those products? 

Keith: We're actually manufacturing the three products now. They're not out on the market but what I suggest is perhaps after the show we figure out getting you the test and then figure out what kind of product and get you Nano5 DNA product to try and maybe in a future show Cameron and the head of EndoCanna could come back and you guys could have a roundtable on what that experience was like. It's really unique because you're actually going online with and basically looking at all the different buckets like you would see in a 23andMe kind of analysis but it's designed around THC and CBD, absorption, reaction etc. I think you'd be someone who would appreciate being a guinea pig for that. 

RJ: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. We will certainly continue that part of the conversation here off air and we will also leave all of the information for Sunderstorm and all you've got going on in the description of this episode here. So for those who are listening and watching, definitely check out the description of this episode to find out more and to stay up to date with the latest that Sunderstorm has in the works. And again, we'll continue that conversation off air but for now Keith Cich, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate you offering your perspective and sharing a little bit of news and clearing up some of the questions revolving around nanotech in cannabis. So Keith, thank you so much again, I really appreciate it. Please continue to be well and stay safe up north as we inch toward that light at the end of the tunnel man.

Keith: I appreciate it. Thank you for the opportunity and Kanha gummies are found in like 600 dispensaries around California. It's one of the larger brands so you can definitely trust that for zero pesticides.